Chat Transcript: Talk City Informs Hosts About Changes
By Talk City
(April 9, 2000)
[Editor's Note: The following is a transcript of a chat held at Talk City where the management informed Talk City's chat hosts (TCCs, CCCs, and CSAs) about the changes being made to eliminate custom IRCs and clients. - Dex]
Now we'll move onto the main event... So everyone please be quiet :-)
Talk City is about Community.
There are lots of things that can be read into that statement, but it is in full a statement that says what we are about. You could say we're about Chat, but that wouldn't be right, because while chat is important to us, and always will be important to us, it's not really what we're about, we're about much more than chat.
So if not about chat, what then is Talk City? Talk City is about enabling people to communicate with others. They communicate by participating in chats, they communicate by building homepages, contributing to discussion boards and so on. Mostly we provide tools that let people communicate with other people... we're about Community.
The key thing that Talk City has which separates us from the rest of the communities on the Internet is our concept of being a clean well lighted place, the fact that we have Standards, and moreover that we enforce those standards.
We provide tools that allow people to communicate with each other in a respectful manner, that is what we do.
Now as I am sure almost all of you know, our vision of a clean well lighted place is a difficult one to maintain. I am sure every one of you involved in hosting chats (and absolutely sure every CSA we have) has had
some unpleasant experiences at the hands of what we loosely call hackers.
We have problems every single hour of every single day with some people who have decided that Talk City is a good place to come and play and show
off just how disrespectful they can really be, and just how much disruption they can cause. From flooding to cloning to scrolling to just about anything you care to mention, we have hackers who come to Talk City
to be as disruptive as they can be.
There are so many different things these people do that cause problems I won't even try to list them, you all know what I am talking about I am sure.
We know that many CSAs can't keep up with the harassment and abuse they receive. We know many hosts have quit because they can't run their chats without these absurd disruptions. We also know there has been little we can do about it.
What is clear is that we have to do something about it, or we will be the
same as everyone else on the Internet. The question has always been just what do we do about it?
So, lets go back a bit to the start of this discussion... We talked about how Talk City isn't about chat, it's about providing tools to enable people to communicate with each other. We also talked about how this small number of users is destroying the experience for everybody, and making Talk City every bit as painful to be at as DAL Net or any number of other places. We can be better than that, we know it, we've been better.
Frequently in mail sent to Chatmaster I have users complaining that our chat server doesn't do this or that, or doesn't meet the standard for IRC
servers for some reason or other. My response is always the same, we're not in the business of IRC, but in the business of allowing people to communicate.
At the beginning of this meeting I talked about the Forum Restructure, and that sometimes change is hard to deal with. Today I am going to tell you about another change we will be making, that for some people will be hard to deal with. I know some people will have a difficult time with this change, probably more so than any change we have ever made in the past. I also know that for the vast majority of our users, the vast majority of our hosts, and 100% of our CSAs this change will improve the quality of their experience on Talk City.
It just isn't going to be very popular.
You know when we look at these "hackers" using various tools to disrupt the flow of communications here at Talk City, we see a common thread. Every one of them uses some form of script or tool that they have created or downloaded to run over the top of their IRC or telnet software. It varies for person to person, for some it's mIRC, for some it's Linux based tools, and even the WebTV users have disruptive scripts they use to
interrupt the flow of communications.
There is also something else we can see looking at this trend. You can't use these attacks if you are using EZTalk, and you can't use these attacks if you are using the standard WebTV chat client. So let me cut to the chase... Effective April 12th we will be restricting access to Talk City to users who use EZTalk, TC Pirch or the built in WebTV Client.
Hosts (TCCs, CCCs, and CSAs) will still be able to use any client they wish for hosting purposes.
I'm not going to get into a technical discussion on how we do this, because it's not important. What is important is that starting April 12th, the only way to participate in chats at Talk City will be to use EZTalk, or TC Pirch, or WebTV launched through the WebTV chat area or directly from the Talk City web site.
Before we go to questions, let me run through some of the questions I suspect you want to ask, then I'll take questions from the floor as it were.
Q1. If I am a host can I use mIRC to chat.
A1. You can use mIRC or any other client to run your hosting sessions with your official HOSTING nickname while you are on duty hosting. Any social chatting or off duty chatting you do can only be done on EZTalk, TC Pirch or regular WebTV.
Q2. A lot of users will go away from Talk City if you do this
A2. Undoubtedly some will, others will come, and they will have a more pleasant experience as a result. Those that are more interested in their software than in the chat itself will go somewhere else to chat. Those who are here to participate in our community will stay, because our community will be even better.
Q3. I am a Mac user, why can't I use Ircle.
A3. Like other scriptable IRC Software, Ircle has the ability to run destructive scripts, and therefore can't be accommodated. As a host you can use Ircle for hosting, but not for chatting. EZTalk works wonderfully on any Mac made in the last five years. If you have problems you might try allocating more memory to your browser.
Q4. Are you doing this to increase ad impressions? Is it about money?
A4. No. Certainly with these changes all our users will see ads, I won't deny that. However the problem isn't ad views, it's about destructive behavior. The only way we can prevent it is to use clients we know can't be used for destructive purposes.
Q5. TC Pirch is scriptable, why is that allowed?
A5. There is a new version of TC Pirch coming out this week that will support the new connection method. This new version also prevents TC Pirch from sending too much data in a short period of time. If someone tries to run a destructive script using TC Pirch it will run very slow and can easily be handled by a room host or CSA.
Q6. What happens to users on April 12th if they try to use a banned client?
A6. If you log on with a client that isn't named above on April 12th you will get an error message explain that they must use EZTalk or TC Pirch, and directing them to our web site for more information. WebTV users with
Scripts that don't work will probably get a "Could not contact server" error.
Q7. When are you going to tell the users?
A7. We will start a campaign tomorrow telling the users about the change. There will be a web page at http://www.talkcity.com/irc/ with details, and information going out to users in an email from us and also WebTV will be advising their users too.
Q8. Can I use my current version of TC Pirch?
A8. No, there is a new version of TC Pirch coming out this week, you will need to upgrade to the new version by April 12th.
Q9. What can we do to help? (My personal favorite question of course)
A9. The most important thing is to be positive about the changes, and to help communicate the information to the users positively. It's easy to get excited about this change. No more flooders, no more clones... Instead of worrying about your hosting shifts you'll be able to look forward to them. Think of all the good things that are going to come out of this change and pass that on to the users who are asking about it. You
can refer people to the web page at http://www.talkcity.com/irc/, and you
can talk about the benefits.
Another important thing you can do to help is not to complain about this change to the users. You may or may not like what we are doing, but it is
important that as hosts you only talk positively about this change, or don't discuss it, just send people who ask you about it to the web site. Another important thing you can do if you are working with many WebTV users on a regular basis is to make sure they understand that this is something that we are doing, not something WebTV is doing. It is also important they understand this change is across the board, we are not singling out WebTV users.
Q10. I totally disagree with this course of action! It is wrong and I won't stand for it!
A10. Talk City is about communicating, not about IRC. We won't sit back and do nothing while people run riot around the servers. We have decided to make this change in the interest of our Clean Well Lighted Community. We're sorry you see things differently than we do, but we understand some
of our users won't be happy with this decision and will choose not to chat at Talk City any more. As all of you have come from our user base we
expect some of you will also not be happy and will also choose not to chat at Talk City any more. If you aren't comfortable with this situation
we understand, we appreciate your contributions to Talk City up till now,
and we'll miss you.
Now I know this is a very emotional issue for some people. Some of you will be excited, some will be upset. Same goes for the users. This is a big change, and it is bound to cause controversy. I know I couldn't possibly have asked and answered all your questions, so I'd like to deal with questions now. We'll try to get through as many questions as we can in the available time.
PeaCCCe: Will there be technical support webpages posted to help users
during this transition?
ResCCCue: Yes PeaCCCe, the first page has just been posted
it
covers the
change in basic terms, and has some FAQs It's at http://www.talkcity.com/irc/ (It's there now I think) The FAQs are also being sent tonight to the TCHelp and email support staff
MuraliTCC: What about users who use *Shell * to come into chat...especially some users from India ?
ResCCCue: Thats an excellent question MuraliTCC! there are very few users who have to use SHELL accounts any more In particular in India the Government ISP has made PPP Available to all it's former Shell accounts And there are many new ISPs in India who have never provided shell accounts So we know that in India Shell accounts are rare now, and can be easily repalced by PPP Accounts In either case, TalKC ity won't support shell accounts come April 12th
CCCinema: How is it going to tell if we are on TCPirch etc.. Because you
can alter your version on most chat clients to read TCPirch or EzTalk 3.0
ResCCCue: Great question CCCinema I'm not going into details
here
(or
anywhere else) But we won't be using the Version response If Talk City supports your client, it will connect, if your client isn't on the list, it won't know what to tell us in order to allow the connection
CCCookin: Will the Talk City approved IRC's that have been built still work on the Talk City site?
ResCCCue: CCCookin I assume you are reffering to WebTV IRC scripts. So I'll answer that as best I can the WebTV IRC scripts are much more difficult to control We will be changing some things ont he server that should make it more difficult for them to connect What we know will work is the WebTV entry at WebTV's Community web site, and the WebTV entry on TalK City's web site We also know the hosts IRC script backstage will work Anything else we don't know if it will work or not, frankly we hope they won't because there are som any WebTV IRC scripts that cause so many
problems
PaceTCCar: what will webtv hosts use to host with is there going to be a
single irc for just webtv hosts?
ResCCCue: There is already a single WebTV script backstage
Our
good
friend Speed is here now and is working on a new hosting IRC. The new Hosting IRC will have space for customizable cookie boxes you can adjust for your own use
TCClassified: Some rooms have onduty Ops in them what is this going to
do
to their control????
ResCCCue: On Duty Ops I assume to mean TCCs or TCCs CCCs and
TCCs
will
use the same clients they use now So their tools will be the same As to what is it going to do to their control... It will make it a lot easier for them They won't have to be fighting off the hackers all shift long and can concentrate omn making the conversation more interesting :-)
ThingTCC: doesnt this effectively ban almost all of webtvs IRCs The answer to this, I hope, is Yes
ResCCCue: WebTV IRCs are amongst our biggest problems Hosts
can
use the
existing backstage WebTV Hosts clients And a new Hosting client Speed is working on right now, with even more features We are also working on a new IRC for WebTV users that they can access from www.talkcity.com Which will be ready before the change As for the rest of the IRCs, yes, we hope
that they will not be useable
TCChatalotLog: Is this confidential from chatters or not?
ResCCCue: Technically we are not announcing this until
tommorrow
So we'd
prefer you didn't tell users However the Web page at http://www.talkcity.com/irc/ is already live, so if they know they can go
look for themselves
TCCharmin: This is Wonderful News and a very Wise Decison my *Applauds*
ResCCCue: Thank You TCCharmin
WisTCCful: I couldnt use TCpirch when I tried a few months ago because
it
told me I ahd to have Explorer, which I dont have. How can I remedy this without changing my browser? I dont have the memory to use both.
ResCCCue: WisTCCful, use any client you like for hosting, and use EZTalk
in Netscape for social chatting, that way you don't have to use Explorer
LeafsTCC: With all due respect to us hosts, what does that say to other chatters that being in uniform we are able to use banned clients?
ResCCCue: Well the question is really are these clients "banned" really
we simply will stop supporting them If you can't connect using mIRC (which you won't be able to do), we won't help you Our answer if you ask or complain will be to us EZTalk or TC Pirch
KhariCCC: are there going to be classes for our hosts who need help with
TCPirch, transferring files and what not? if so, is there information on them yet? if not, is there someone they can contact regarding these things?
ResCCCue: Great question Khari!!! We have just hired
CCCoyote and MouseCCC to help prepare all sorts of tools for TC Pirch, and Kat will be
working out some extra training
TCChimp: are you going to email us all the url's for users to complain
to??
ResCCCue: TCChimp.... user complaints won't help, but we do expectthem I expect they will send them to Chatmaster email, they always seem to They will probably also goto the help pages on our web site, where they can send comments All of these thoings require resources for us to answer each email The best palce to send them to is to the web site with the announcement.... http://www.talkcity.com/irc/ That is where the information will live
HuskyTCC: i think this is wounderfull....i also think that threw this all we have to remember to be patient with the chatters while they go threw this as well
ResCCCue: Indeed Husky! Everyone should remember this It will be hard forthe users, as well as hard for us
MisCCChief: does that affec the linux users like in the india rooms from VSNL?
ResCCCue: Does it affect Linux users.. yes, it affects all users, PC, Mac, WebTV, Linux, anyone connecting to TalK City India users all have PPP accounts, they can use a Browser and load EZZTalk, they can use TC Pirch
StuMpedTCC: Bruce, there are alot of hackers out there that could easily alter the source code, etc. to compensate for this. How will that be addressed?
ResCCCue: StuMped... you got me, I'm StuMped ;-) Actually... Alter the source code is a big statement to make Last time I looked no-one other than the person who wrote Pirch, or mIRC and so on actually has the source code And even if they did have the source code... they would have to know what we are doing differently before they can alter it So, is it possible that some hacker could find a way around the changes, yes is it likely? I don't think so; we are changing all sorts of pieces to make this work, and finding the right pieces and making the changes won't be easy for even a great programmer
CCChance: This is more of an aggreeance with what changes Talk City is doing, Not only will it make the chat a lot more pleasant it will encourage hosts when not hosting to use the Talk City products which in fact then will help the hosts become more profficient in what we offer as chat clients
ResCCCue: Indeed you are totally correct CCCHance... Think of it from this point of view... If you are trying to help a user, and don't know the software they use, how can you help?
SnaTCCk: will there be a log of this staff meeting for the ones that keep geting put out of the room or the ones that were not here?
ResCCCue: Yes, it will be available Backstage tommorrow
ResCCCue: OK Folks... there are a lot of questions in the queue that are very specific questions about very specific instances And I don't want to go into veryt specific issues I think you've all got the general idea of what's happening
The communications starts to the users tomorrow, with Newsflashes and the launch of the web page open letter at http://www.talkcity.com/irc/. There will also be mention of this change in an email newsletter we are sending out to our users, and WebTV will be sending information out also Tomorrow is when this will start to be a big issues as our users find out. Hopefully the majority of people will like what we are doing. Hopefully most of you like what we are doing. It's a big change and it will definitely stir some emotions.
Remember we are making this change to improve the experience for every user on Talk City. No flooding, no cloning, just plain, simple, easy to use communications between people. Thanks for coming everyone, it's been a great meeting
:-)
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